The Deacon and The Professor. Part 3

The following is the third (and maybe final) part of an exchange on Facebook between myself and my 28 year old nephew, a college professor at the University of Washington. It is posted with his permission. The exchange began with the posting of an anti-prop 8 video. I don't think I am succeeding in changing his mind, but this illustrates well the mindset of the culture our children are growing up in. Feel free (again) to comment at the end.

Dan Jensen:
How loving of Him?

Yes, How loving of Him to create a beautiful universe for your observation, exploration, and personal protection.
How loving of Him to create a world with physical laws that can be discovered and harnessed for our use, a beautiful world, awe-inspiring in its amazing features from the depths of the ocean to the sky at sunset.
How loving of Him to design the human body to function through five senses, the human mind to reason, human emotion to feel, spiritual awareness to... to what? To waste on self? To deny its unmeasurable existence? Denying His immeasurable existence?
Spiritual awareness was designed into you so you would ask the big questions and seek the answers a big God provided.
How small the mind of educated man. Just how do you think God would choose to communicate with man? Magic? Audible Voice? He chose words. He demonstrated the love you disdain through an event that you can verify in history. Life is short. Eternity is forever. Of course it has priority


Andy Ko:
"Hi, I'm God. I created this world for you. It's complex, I admit. There's pleasure, there's pain. Your purpose won't always be clear. But I think it's pretty cool.

"The thing is, there are some problems. See, some of you will do everything right and die. Some of you will do everything wrong and live. Also, some of you will want to do harmless things, but if you do them, you'll go to hell, i.e., two men sleeping together. If you're intersexed, you're screwed.

"And some of you will do things that will harm lots, and I'll praise you for it! For example, those gays I mentioned? Don't treat them the same. I know, they're not hurting anyone, but it's just wrong, okay? They deserve to suffer more than you do.

"No, I won't tell you why, it's not important. It just is. Look, if you're having a hard time, it's not my fault.

"Oh wait! Yes it is!

"Look, just follow the rules. If you do, you get eternal happiness. If you don't, you're screwed. Good luck!

This is sadism, not love.


Dan Jensen:
"Hi, Steve Jobs. I told you before. Read the manual if you want to get the most out of your iPod. No, remember... the male part goes in the female part if you want to hear really good music. Not getting a charge? No, remember, the plug goes in the outlet!
What? No, I am not being mean, I am just warning you that if you do it that way, the virus protection won't exist. No, I LOVE music! That is why I invented the iPod! What? You are going to sue for equal rights for people who think you should have designed the mini-jack to work with the multi outlet? Well, I'm truly sorry you think this gig bites, but if you simply read the manual you will be able to enjoys years of great music! Don't read? It's OK, we provide seminars every Sunday for free! You don't need to go to a Seminar to be an iPod user? Maybe not, but it would help, especially since your confusion is causing feedback damage to your system. Yes, you could just look through the Windows... but that would be so, um... PC.


Andy Ko:
A for effort! But Steve Jobs is buddhist :) That, and the metaphor of God = megalomaniacal marketer is a bit disturbing.

I'd rather jump off your earlier point, 'how small the mind of an educated man.' I think what you were getting at was 'how small the mind of a man who listens only to reason, and not to his spiritual instincts.' Here you make the assumption that people who deny the existence of the God have no spirituality, or ignore it.

This is patently false. How do you think it is that atheists come to their conclusions? Take me. I asked questions, gathered the evidence, listened to my spiritual instincts and discovered my beliefs. They happened to be a mix of those from many religions and even some from our constitution. I follow my ideals consistently, on faith.

The average follower questions nothing. They never truly understand the source of their beliefs. Pastors should encourage their followers be skeptics. If the bible is truly God's word, they'll find truth.


Dan Jensen:
There is very little correlation between education and wisdom. Deep study of any and all religions may bring knowledge and even a feeling of spiritual satisfaction, but are any of them true? Other than picking up common tidbits of moral direction, how do they answer the big questions of life and afterlife? Do you really come back as a bat or a gnat after you die? Are cows really sacred? Is God really in all of us? Do all roads really lead to the same place? Do words really have the power to create reality?

You are correct in lamenting the lack of skepticism among Christians. If all Christians followed the advice of scripture, they would "test everything" as it requires. The most trustworthy Christian teachers DO encourage an honest search for Truth rather than a regurgitation of the latest Christian "Feel Good" book. Christians have exactly zero to fear from this search for Truth. ALL other religions will fail this test. All religions can be wrong, but they cannot all be right.


Andy Ko:
The questions you ask, while they might be big to you, all seem kind of silly to me. They're only "big" because they presuppose the existence of a something and then question its attributes. One only wonders about afterlife is if one thinks there might be one. The same is true for reincarnation, and God himself.

I have big, presupposing questions too. Do vampires really live on blood? Is the bogeyman truly the source of all fear? Does Genebar the Merit Monster judge our eternal souls when we die?

The bottom line is that some of us don't wonder about the existence of God, because there's no reason to. The only thing innate about the question of God is the universal human need of naming the unexplained. You know, god = cause of rain, god = prime mover of celestial bodies.

Today, we have explanations for most of the bigs things. People still use God to explain consciousness, they call him the final arbiter to explain suffering. The hole in my heart is evidence-shaped, not God-shaped.


Dan Jensen:
Evidence? That is the easy part. The hard part is bowing your knee at the feet of Jesus when the insurmountable evidence leads you there.

Thinking atheists are willing to reverse course when the evidence leads them to a personally interested God as described in scripture. Men like Josh McDowell (Evidence That Demands A Verdict), Lee Strobel (The Case For Faith), and famous atheist Dr. Antony Flew.

Jokers like Bill Maher (Religulous), Richard Dawkins ("Aliens could be the Intelligent Designers"), and Bart Ehrman are less Atheist than they are simply self-aggrandizing pleasure prophets. Any excuse will do if it frees me up to do what I want! Give me a Title and a beard and I can pronounce my pleasures with authority!

The first error of a simple Atheist is the rejection of all things supernatural. Reason accepts supernatural explanation when it is rooted in evidence. Silly = recognizing design in a simple basketball but refusing to acknowledge design in the irreducibly complex human.


Andy Ko:
Everyone take things on faith. We take all of knowledge on faith, because we cannot prove the logical axioms that form its basis. Theists, however, take additional things on faith, such as the existence of God and the bible as his word. This leap leads to some wonderful things, because Jesus had many useful lessons for humanity.

The problem is that some of these beliefs, these absolute truths, inadvertently cause suffering. When you vote against gay marriage and stigmatize the harmless behavior of your fellow man, you cause real suffering.

Let people seek pleasure if it does not harm others. Believe in God, if it doesn't lead you to shame and kill. Believe we were designed, but don't deny others knowledge of biological evidence.

The message of the atheists you mock is "stop believing things that harm people, otherwise believe what you want." So choose: do you take God's word as absolute and fuel hate, or do you take the helpful things from your faith and leave the rest behind?


Dan Jensen:
Hey, it's not "mocking" to call Bill Maher a joker... that's what he does for a living! :)

I sincerely admire your obvious compassion on those who recognize themselves as gay. Through our discussion I have had to examine my motives (plural - there are several) to make sure your characterization of "yes" voters does not apply to me.

I suspect, however, that most "yes" voters were simply not willing to be bullied by the rich and powerful into giving up on the traditional definition of marriage. The gay lobby is extremely well represented in the media, popular, but patently disrespectful to any who would disagree with their chosen characterizations of their personal choices.

Atheism requires faith in man, a historically and eternally bad idea, evidenced in the murderous legacies of socialist history.

Christianity requires faith in God, a historically and eternally good idea, evidenced in science, philosophy, medicine, the American Experiment. And in men whose lives are redeemed.


Andy Ko:
Of course gays are disrespectful of your judgements. I am disrespectful of your judgements. Who are you to judge? Who are you to deny them the rights you take for granted? Marriage, in the law you voted to pass, was the legal distinction and its entailing rights and benefits, not the religious concept you fear is splintering. In this country, we don't base laws on religious beliefs, we base them on our constitution. You told millions of people that the things *you* take on faith are more important than their constitutionally protected equality. You voted to create second class citizens.

Shame on you for judging their behavior when it does you no harm. Shame on you violating article I of constitution. I sit here, judging you, for the harm you've caused my gay friends, my gay relatives, my gay coworkers, and my freedom and equality founded country.

As I said before, believe what you want, but don't you dare impair the life and liberty of your fellow man or your family.


Dan Jensen:
Wow! We are still talking about marriage, right?

You forget that marriage was not invented by you, your friends, co-workers, relatives, or Hollywood. Marriage, along with sex, was invented, defined, and designed by an infinitely loving God who revealed Himself to us through 66 love letters we refer to as the Bible.

Evil men, "drawn away and enticed by their own lusts," have always tried to redefine evil to suit their deviations. It is much easier to redefine evil than it is to actually repent of evil. Marketing.

Jump off a tall building and redefine gravity all the way down if you want, but don't encourage your friends, coworkers, and relatives to do the same. The suffering will not be caused by gravity, and it certainly won't be caused by the guy at the top trying to reason with you to not step over the railing.

Your judge is God, not me. God is a righteous judge who doesn't change at the whim of culture. "How dare you" says the pot to the potter! How dare you indeed!


Andy Ko:
Prop 8 was never about God's concept of marriage. God's concept is inconsequential to civil rights and state law. We're talking about marriage rights granted by the state and federal gov't: estate planning, social security, income tax, employment, medical, and death benefits. You told the citizens of your state that they deserve less than you. Believe what you want about God's laws, but don't write them into state law.

Whatever God says, your interpretation of his laws continues to cause suffering, leading parents to disown their gay sons and daughters, husbands and wives to play roles in conflict with their personality. There are some great lessons in Christianity, lessons that lead to peace, joy, and understanding. Its antiquated ideas about marriage and sexuality are not among them, marginalizing minorities and justifying hate.

But I suppose God's acceptance is worth the consequences, right? Sickening.


Dan Jensen:
You speak as though the state and federal government actually have power of their own. All government exists only at the will of God. I suppose the Nazi govt. thought they had power what with all the marketing about a thousand year reign and all. I suppose East Berlin felt pretty powerful right before the wall came down. I suppose the USSR also felt pretty powerful.

This country grew under the leadership of men who feared God first and created laws that reflected that. This country will fail under the leadership of men who consider moral principles to be flexible, checking the winds of culture with their fingers in the air.

Modern culture is pathetic in its naivete. The nuclear family, (one man one woman raising children), must be exclusively defined or the massive suffering already perpetrated on this society by irresponsible people will only grow worse. The ease of divorce is a perfect example of this. The temporary nature of modern marriage costs the security of children.


Andy Ko:
Your morality, your list of God-given rules, is a fickle set of standards derived from the cultural norms of two millennia ago. The principles underlying these rules are "suppress individuality", "deny pleasure", "spurn deviance," and other destructive guidelines. Worse yet, they're inconsistent with the great moral ideas of Christianity: love your enemies, love your neighbor as you love yourself, do not judge and you will not be judged.

My morality is civil equality. This is an inflexible, fundamental ethic, achieved in small steps since the dawn of man. You get financial and personal benefits for being straight, gays don't.

I value humanity, happiness, and life and all the ways these are manifested. You value deity, salvation, and afterlife. Every one of our disagreements stems from this difference. I will side with people and our complexity, you will side with a book and its absolutes. I will love and support every human, but you will love and judge them through God.