The following is the third (and maybe final) part of an exchange on Facebook between myself and my 28 year old nephew, a college professor at the University of Washington. It is posted with his permission. The exchange began with the posting of an anti-prop 8 video. I don't think I am succeeding in changing his mind, but this illustrates well the mindset of the culture our children are growing up in. Feel free (again) to comment at the end.
Dan Jensen:
How loving of Him?
Yes, How loving of Him to create a beautiful universe for your observation, exploration, and personal protection.
How loving of Him to create a world with physical laws that can be discovered and harnessed for our use, a beautiful world, awe-inspiring in its amazing features from the depths of the ocean to the sky at sunset.
How loving of Him to design the human body to function through five senses, the human mind to reason, human emotion to feel, spiritual awareness to... to what? To waste on self? To deny its unmeasurable existence? Denying His immeasurable existence?
Spiritual awareness was designed into you so you would ask the big questions and seek the answers a big God provided.
How small the mind of educated man. Just how do you think God would choose to communicate with man? Magic? Audible Voice? He chose words. He demonstrated the love you disdain through an event that you can verify in history. Life is short. Eternity is forever. Of course it has priority
Andy Ko:
"Hi, I'm God. I created this world for you. It's complex, I admit. There's pleasure, there's pain. Your purpose won't always be clear. But I think it's pretty cool.
"The thing is, there are some problems. See, some of you will do everything right and die. Some of you will do everything wrong and live. Also, some of you will want to do harmless things, but if you do them, you'll go to hell, i.e., two men sleeping together. If you're intersexed, you're screwed.
"And some of you will do things that will harm lots, and I'll praise you for it! For example, those gays I mentioned? Don't treat them the same. I know, they're not hurting anyone, but it's just wrong, okay? They deserve to suffer more than you do.
"No, I won't tell you why, it's not important. It just is. Look, if you're having a hard time, it's not my fault.
"Oh wait! Yes it is!
"Look, just follow the rules. If you do, you get eternal happiness. If you don't, you're screwed. Good luck!
This is sadism, not love.
Dan Jensen:
"Hi, Steve Jobs. I told you before. Read the manual if you want to get the most out of your iPod. No, remember... the male part goes in the female part if you want to hear really good music. Not getting a charge? No, remember, the plug goes in the outlet!
What? No, I am not being mean, I am just warning you that if you do it that way, the virus protection won't exist. No, I LOVE music! That is why I invented the iPod! What? You are going to sue for equal rights for people who think you should have designed the mini-jack to work with the multi outlet? Well, I'm truly sorry you think this gig bites, but if you simply read the manual you will be able to enjoys years of great music! Don't read? It's OK, we provide seminars every Sunday for free! You don't need to go to a Seminar to be an iPod user? Maybe not, but it would help, especially since your confusion is causing feedback damage to your system. Yes, you could just look through the Windows... but that would be so, um... PC.
Andy Ko:
A for effort! But Steve Jobs is buddhist :) That, and the metaphor of God = megalomaniacal marketer is a bit disturbing.
I'd rather jump off your earlier point, 'how small the mind of an educated man.' I think what you were getting at was 'how small the mind of a man who listens only to reason, and not to his spiritual instincts.' Here you make the assumption that people who deny the existence of the God have no spirituality, or ignore it.
This is patently false. How do you think it is that atheists come to their conclusions? Take me. I asked questions, gathered the evidence, listened to my spiritual instincts and discovered my beliefs. They happened to be a mix of those from many religions and even some from our constitution. I follow my ideals consistently, on faith.
The average follower questions nothing. They never truly understand the source of their beliefs. Pastors should encourage their followers be skeptics. If the bible is truly God's word, they'll find truth.
Dan Jensen:
There is very little correlation between education and wisdom. Deep study of any and all religions may bring knowledge and even a feeling of spiritual satisfaction, but are any of them true? Other than picking up common tidbits of moral direction, how do they answer the big questions of life and afterlife? Do you really come back as a bat or a gnat after you die? Are cows really sacred? Is God really in all of us? Do all roads really lead to the same place? Do words really have the power to create reality?
You are correct in lamenting the lack of skepticism among Christians. If all Christians followed the advice of scripture, they would "test everything" as it requires. The most trustworthy Christian teachers DO encourage an honest search for Truth rather than a regurgitation of the latest Christian "Feel Good" book. Christians have exactly zero to fear from this search for Truth. ALL other religions will fail this test. All religions can be wrong, but they cannot all be right.
Andy Ko:
The questions you ask, while they might be big to you, all seem kind of silly to me. They're only "big" because they presuppose the existence of a something and then question its attributes. One only wonders about afterlife is if one thinks there might be one. The same is true for reincarnation, and God himself.
I have big, presupposing questions too. Do vampires really live on blood? Is the bogeyman truly the source of all fear? Does Genebar the Merit Monster judge our eternal souls when we die?
The bottom line is that some of us don't wonder about the existence of God, because there's no reason to. The only thing innate about the question of God is the universal human need of naming the unexplained. You know, god = cause of rain, god = prime mover of celestial bodies.
Today, we have explanations for most of the bigs things. People still use God to explain consciousness, they call him the final arbiter to explain suffering. The hole in my heart is evidence-shaped, not God-shaped.
Dan Jensen:
Evidence? That is the easy part. The hard part is bowing your knee at the feet of Jesus when the insurmountable evidence leads you there.
Thinking atheists are willing to reverse course when the evidence leads them to a personally interested God as described in scripture. Men like Josh McDowell (Evidence That Demands A Verdict), Lee Strobel (The Case For Faith), and famous atheist Dr. Antony Flew.
Jokers like Bill Maher (Religulous), Richard Dawkins ("Aliens could be the Intelligent Designers"), and Bart Ehrman are less Atheist than they are simply self-aggrandizing pleasure prophets. Any excuse will do if it frees me up to do what I want! Give me a Title and a beard and I can pronounce my pleasures with authority!
The first error of a simple Atheist is the rejection of all things supernatural. Reason accepts supernatural explanation when it is rooted in evidence. Silly = recognizing design in a simple basketball but refusing to acknowledge design in the irreducibly complex human.
Andy Ko:
Everyone take things on faith. We take all of knowledge on faith, because we cannot prove the logical axioms that form its basis. Theists, however, take additional things on faith, such as the existence of God and the bible as his word. This leap leads to some wonderful things, because Jesus had many useful lessons for humanity.
The problem is that some of these beliefs, these absolute truths, inadvertently cause suffering. When you vote against gay marriage and stigmatize the harmless behavior of your fellow man, you cause real suffering.
Let people seek pleasure if it does not harm others. Believe in God, if it doesn't lead you to shame and kill. Believe we were designed, but don't deny others knowledge of biological evidence.
The message of the atheists you mock is "stop believing things that harm people, otherwise believe what you want." So choose: do you take God's word as absolute and fuel hate, or do you take the helpful things from your faith and leave the rest behind?
Dan Jensen:
Hey, it's not "mocking" to call Bill Maher a joker... that's what he does for a living! :)
I sincerely admire your obvious compassion on those who recognize themselves as gay. Through our discussion I have had to examine my motives (plural - there are several) to make sure your characterization of "yes" voters does not apply to me.
I suspect, however, that most "yes" voters were simply not willing to be bullied by the rich and powerful into giving up on the traditional definition of marriage. The gay lobby is extremely well represented in the media, popular, but patently disrespectful to any who would disagree with their chosen characterizations of their personal choices.
Atheism requires faith in man, a historically and eternally bad idea, evidenced in the murderous legacies of socialist history.
Christianity requires faith in God, a historically and eternally good idea, evidenced in science, philosophy, medicine, the American Experiment. And in men whose lives are redeemed.
Andy Ko:
Of course gays are disrespectful of your judgements. I am disrespectful of your judgements. Who are you to judge? Who are you to deny them the rights you take for granted? Marriage, in the law you voted to pass, was the legal distinction and its entailing rights and benefits, not the religious concept you fear is splintering. In this country, we don't base laws on religious beliefs, we base them on our constitution. You told millions of people that the things *you* take on faith are more important than their constitutionally protected equality. You voted to create second class citizens.
Shame on you for judging their behavior when it does you no harm. Shame on you violating article I of constitution. I sit here, judging you, for the harm you've caused my gay friends, my gay relatives, my gay coworkers, and my freedom and equality founded country.
As I said before, believe what you want, but don't you dare impair the life and liberty of your fellow man or your family.
Dan Jensen:
Wow! We are still talking about marriage, right?
You forget that marriage was not invented by you, your friends, co-workers, relatives, or Hollywood. Marriage, along with sex, was invented, defined, and designed by an infinitely loving God who revealed Himself to us through 66 love letters we refer to as the Bible.
Evil men, "drawn away and enticed by their own lusts," have always tried to redefine evil to suit their deviations. It is much easier to redefine evil than it is to actually repent of evil. Marketing.
Jump off a tall building and redefine gravity all the way down if you want, but don't encourage your friends, coworkers, and relatives to do the same. The suffering will not be caused by gravity, and it certainly won't be caused by the guy at the top trying to reason with you to not step over the railing.
Your judge is God, not me. God is a righteous judge who doesn't change at the whim of culture. "How dare you" says the pot to the potter! How dare you indeed!
Andy Ko:
Prop 8 was never about God's concept of marriage. God's concept is inconsequential to civil rights and state law. We're talking about marriage rights granted by the state and federal gov't: estate planning, social security, income tax, employment, medical, and death benefits. You told the citizens of your state that they deserve less than you. Believe what you want about God's laws, but don't write them into state law.
Whatever God says, your interpretation of his laws continues to cause suffering, leading parents to disown their gay sons and daughters, husbands and wives to play roles in conflict with their personality. There are some great lessons in Christianity, lessons that lead to peace, joy, and understanding. Its antiquated ideas about marriage and sexuality are not among them, marginalizing minorities and justifying hate.
But I suppose God's acceptance is worth the consequences, right? Sickening.
Dan Jensen:
You speak as though the state and federal government actually have power of their own. All government exists only at the will of God. I suppose the Nazi govt. thought they had power what with all the marketing about a thousand year reign and all. I suppose East Berlin felt pretty powerful right before the wall came down. I suppose the USSR also felt pretty powerful.
This country grew under the leadership of men who feared God first and created laws that reflected that. This country will fail under the leadership of men who consider moral principles to be flexible, checking the winds of culture with their fingers in the air.
Modern culture is pathetic in its naivete. The nuclear family, (one man one woman raising children), must be exclusively defined or the massive suffering already perpetrated on this society by irresponsible people will only grow worse. The ease of divorce is a perfect example of this. The temporary nature of modern marriage costs the security of children.
Andy Ko:
Your morality, your list of God-given rules, is a fickle set of standards derived from the cultural norms of two millennia ago. The principles underlying these rules are "suppress individuality", "deny pleasure", "spurn deviance," and other destructive guidelines. Worse yet, they're inconsistent with the great moral ideas of Christianity: love your enemies, love your neighbor as you love yourself, do not judge and you will not be judged.
My morality is civil equality. This is an inflexible, fundamental ethic, achieved in small steps since the dawn of man. You get financial and personal benefits for being straight, gays don't.
I value humanity, happiness, and life and all the ways these are manifested. You value deity, salvation, and afterlife. Every one of our disagreements stems from this difference. I will side with people and our complexity, you will side with a book and its absolutes. I will love and support every human, but you will love and judge them through God.
Monday, December 22, 2008
Tuesday, December 9, 2008
The Deacon and The Professor. Part 2
The following is the second part of an exchange on Facebook between myself and my 28 year old nephew, a college professor at the University of Washington. It is posted with his permission. The exchange began with the posting of an anti-prop 8 video. I don't think I am succeeding in changing his mind, but this illustrates well the mindset of the culture our children are growing up in. Feel free (again) to comment at the end.
Dan Jensen:
The reason I continue to compare homosexuality with pedophilia (thakns :) for corecting the sppelling..) is that pedophilia is now where homosexuality was a couple decades ago. You and I can currently agree that it is wrong, but without an unchanging framework (i.e. the Bible) to anchor us, you may be debating with YOUR nephew in 30 years as to why it is wrong for a "consenting" 12 year old boy to have sex with a 35 year old man.
NAMBLA exists to: "end the oppression of men and boys who have freely chosen mutually consenting relationships."
There is nothing new or different in this generation that hasn't been argued or experienced in the past. An admittedly extreme example can be found in the first century where Nero "married" a young boy after having his masculinity surgically removed. He served as an example to many men at the time who simply wanted to go where their urges lead them after becoming bored with the normal.
"...the men also abandoned natural relations with women..."
Andy Ko:
The two are hardly comparable. Homosexual relationships don't harm anyone, no one's will is being subverted, there are no issues of consent, there is no unwanted control. It was normal behavior since the dawn of humanity until the rise of Christianity deemed it immoral.
Pedophilia is different. Any time there is a power dynamic between two people in a relationship, there is the risk (but not guarantee) of abuse. Between a 35 year old and a 6 year old, it's all but guaranteed; between and 35 year old and a 12 year old, it's almost certain; between a 35 year old and a 17 year old, it's less certain. The same problems can occur between a 50 year old boss and a 20 year old intern, or a 20 year old boss and a 50 year old subordinate. The same basic ethics apply to all of these situations and always will.
Gay marriage is not a slippery slope to anarchy, it is a step toward equal rights and peace.
Dan Jensen:
When you say "Homosexual relationships don't harm anyone," I assume you are not talking about the homosexuals themselves?
* 83% gay men have more than 50 partners lifetime.
* Drug use during sex = 50 times hetero.
* 33% loose normal bowel function.
* 1 in 14 die from bacteria and viral disease.
* 70% are STD carriers.
* 30% are HIV pos.
*10% have AIDS.
No big deal because they are consenting adults, right?
Wrong. Actually, 40% of HIV pos. men have had sex in the last two months..."unprotected." I wonder if their partners know?
Safe sex is a cruel joke.
This is an activity that is guaranteed to cause death and disease to those who participate in it.
If we really love these people, we will not accept, facilitate, encourage, enable, or ignore it. We should warn, inform, and encourage acceptance of self-restraint as a lifestyle.
God warns from His nature of Love. But He created us to choose.
Andy Ko:
Ug. Back to correlation and causation. Okay.
Most people in prison are black. Therefore blacks are more violent and immoral. (Wrong. Most people commit crime because they feel they have nothing to lose; most inner-city black kids think they'll be dead by 20, because they're surrounded by death).
Children who go to private schools do better in school and get into better colleges, therefore, private schools are better than public . (Wrong, private schools accept the ones that test well; public schools accept everyone).
Homosexual men have higher rates of unprotected sex and drugs, therefore, homosexuality causes harm. (Wrong. Homosexual men, like black men, engage in riskier behavior because they feel they have nothing to lose after losing everything).
If only the world were so simple. Homosexuality doesn't cause the harm; self-loathing, caused by homophobia, causes the harm. We know this because gay men with loving, accepting parents and friends do not engage in risky behavior.
Dan Jensen:
Homosexual sex requires unnatural use of various body parts for activities for which they were not designed for, therefore, rectums tear, the anal sphincter muscle is gradually destroyed, the absorbing layer of cells in the rectum absorb bacteria rather than repelling it, therefore disease levels in homosexuals are elevated significantly in comparison to exclusive heterosexual participants.
We haven't discussed the pathologies associated with oral sex yet, but the correlation of disease to activity is undeniable.
"Safe Sex" is a nightmare policy that has only emboldened people to discount the warnings being shouted by their consciences, which I think by your definition would be referred to as "self-loathing."
Well-adjusted homosexuals in healthy environments with loving parents are still going to die early from medical complications from their activity. Somebody valuable enough for Jesus Christ to die for, is certainly "being harmed."
Andy Ko:
Wow, you need a sex ed refresher course; or maybe you never had one. Anal and oral sex are in no way riskier or unhealthier than vaginal sex; oral sex is the least risky. Anyone who's told you otherwise is spreading lies. Do your research, even if from a biblical view (www.sexinchrist.com).
Moreover, not all gay men have anal sex, many straight men have anal sex with women, and women of all orientations do it. Maybe you should deny marriage to straight couples who do anal to protect them from themselves.
The worst part about these myths is how many young Christians have unprotected sex because they believe the only ones at risk are gay couples.
To sum up your argument: gay couples shouldn't have equal rights because they harm children (false), they harm themselves (false), it would create an immoral society (false), and god hates gay men (sure, why not?). All you have left is a single line in the bible about murdering men who lie with other men.
You do little to convince.
Dan Jensen:
A plethora of dogmatic assertions does not a defensible argument make.
You have made statements about God with little concern about the reality that He is in fact watching you. It is likely to me that you either do not believe in God or that if you do, you don't believe He is interested in you or what you do.
You have misrepresented and misinterpreted the Holy Scriptures in which God has chosen to reveal Himself to you, suggesting that you believe there are no consequences to ignoring Him.
You have been so immersed in the lies of your social education, you repeat what you have been told by rote as if that will make it true... (i.e. "10% of the population is gay etc,... taken from the embarrassingly discredited Kinsey study of 1948)
If I have not convinced you, I apologize for my inability to do so, because this is about much more than prop 8. It is about the Christian Worldview and the questions it answers for Time and for Eternity. "Seek and you shall find" is referring to Truth.
Andy Ko:
I'll happily cite evidence for every claim I make. I've read the scientific source of every claim I make with a skeptical and objective eye: some were valid, some were not. Many who share my positions *do* accept these things as fact, because few people know how to do or read such research. But I do. I've been doing it for 10 years. I do it now as a professor.
For an even-handed discussion of the Kinsey results, see [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_Reports]. It's missing more recent int'l surveys of homosexuality, which, depending on the sample, lead to statistics between 2 and 15% over respondents' lifetimes.
As for me, I have no need for a god loves some and not all, no need for a god who uses fear, consequence, and retribution to instill good. I have no need for a god that leads people to abandon their reason and individuality for faith and conformance. I can be good consistently and happy persistently by loving myself and those around me. As can billions of others.
Dan Jensen:
Another professor I know considered himself the most reluctant of all Christians. He accepted the authority and Lordship of Jesus as a result of his careful investigation into the claims of Jesus and the claims of the bible. But he had significant misconceptions, irrational fears if you will, about what serving God should be like. But he simply accepted Truth, and through long relationship with God he discovered the forms that love from God would take, and what forms his obedience to the Master would take.
C.S. Lewis would later go on to write about this in The Chronicles of Narnia. In reference to Aslan the lion, a metaphorical substitute for Jesus, when a child asked, "Is he safe?" the reply was a hasty: "Safe? Of course He's not safe! But He is good."
God is not the god you fear he is. But God IS the God that deserves your fear, respect, and obedience. Because of his desire for honest relationship, He lets you be the one to choose.
Andy Ko:
I've read multiple versions of the bible, the Qur'an, the Tanakh, the Tao Te Ching, the Vedas, the Five Classics, the Book of Mormon, Theravada, and several other texts. I've gone regularly to the religious services of several faiths. I've had long and deliberative conversations with people of all kinds of faiths about why I should believe.
Whether God exists or not, whether he is dead or not, does not concern me. What concerns me is how people use and abuse religious beliefs to war and murder. The beliefs about homosexuality and generally any sort of harmless deviance that Christianity and other religions propound leads the less objective of humanity to do horrible things.
Today, for example, is the day we remember people killed in the name of God:
http://www.transgenderdor.org/?page_id=58
I have no problem with religion; I take issue with organized religion's propensity for murder, hate and division. I care far more about suffering here and now than afterlife or judgement day.
Dan Jensen:
"Ug. Back to correlation and causation. Okay."
Christianity teaches that homosexuality is wrong, so when a man tries to bed his new female friend and discovers she lied to him and is actually male and he kills her/him, he is killing in the name of God. Ug.
You simply don't take it far enough. God teaches us what proper behavior is not because he flipped a coin and decided which behaviors are evil and which are good. His character determines what is right and wrong, and the violations which we freely choose create avoidable consequence.
Far more people have suffered and died in the name of atheism than have ever suffered at the hands of those who abuse religious beliefs. Russia, China, Viet Nam, Germany...
Murder is evil regardless of the excuse used to perpetrate it.
Sexual sin is a sin against one's own body. The depression, anxiety, anger, exposure to disease... all personal choice with avoidable consequences. One Man, One Woman, monogamous for life, God's design.
Andy Ko:
*I* know that God doesn't condone murder. It's sheep who read the bible literally who leap from "God hates homosexuality" to "I should spill homosexual blood." As unfortunate as it is, people often interpret religious texts in a way that condones bigoted violence. Most transgender murders are in the name of god; abortion doctor murders are in the name of god; the crusades & inquisitions were in the name of god; 9/11 was in the name of god. People of nearly all religions (or lack thereof) use religion, and in general, believe in absolute truth, as an excuse for violence.
Of course, humanity's gods never meant for this to happen. They just didn't communicate their morality well through writing. This is all the more reason for people to learn ethics explicitly instead of relying on texts that *imply* morals through fables. Say "love your neighbor" and people understand; say "God wants you to love your neighbor or else," and people use God as an excuse for any number of heinous crimes.
Dan Jensen:
People doing what people want to do is called sin. People doing what God wants them to do is called obedience. What you refer to as self-loathing is, I believe, little more than the natural consequence of suppressing conscience.... the act of disobedience to God. That feeling of self-loathing also occurs when Christians hate homosexuals instead of loving them, or when otherwise good dads make dumb decisions with their kids on occasion. The cure for self-loathing is compliance with Truth, or compliance with the design and standards of God. You don't have to be a Christian to experience a measure of success from simply following design, just as the abuse of design in the world of mechanical devices often leads to failure and/or injury.
I respect that you do not yet have the level of confidence in the reliability or divine inspiration of the Bible required to buy in to what I have stated. Part of my confidence comes from study, part from faith, but most comes from my redemption.
Andy Ko:
This is the sad thing about so many religions. People use them as an excuse to judge. You impose your worldview on strangers who do no to harm you, and yet cause real, tangible harm to them, denying them equality, reinforcing stigma and hate--all to preserve a fractured doctrine that you take on faith.
I suppose if I believed that the bible was God's word, I'd sacrifice others' happiness and freedom in his name too. But I don't. It seems silly to place words written and translated by men two millennia ago before the lives of the living.
The irreducible fact here is that I prioritize people and their God-given individuality, while you prioritize their judgement after death. That's too bad; you could bring a of joy to people if you weren't standing in their way calling them sinners. But I suppose God only intended certain kinds of joy, for certain kinds of people, didn't he? How loving of him.
Dan Jensen:
The reason I continue to compare homosexuality with pedophilia (thakns :) for corecting the sppelling..) is that pedophilia is now where homosexuality was a couple decades ago. You and I can currently agree that it is wrong, but without an unchanging framework (i.e. the Bible) to anchor us, you may be debating with YOUR nephew in 30 years as to why it is wrong for a "consenting" 12 year old boy to have sex with a 35 year old man.
NAMBLA exists to: "end the oppression of men and boys who have freely chosen mutually consenting relationships."
There is nothing new or different in this generation that hasn't been argued or experienced in the past. An admittedly extreme example can be found in the first century where Nero "married" a young boy after having his masculinity surgically removed. He served as an example to many men at the time who simply wanted to go where their urges lead them after becoming bored with the normal.
"...the men also abandoned natural relations with women..."
Andy Ko:
The two are hardly comparable. Homosexual relationships don't harm anyone, no one's will is being subverted, there are no issues of consent, there is no unwanted control. It was normal behavior since the dawn of humanity until the rise of Christianity deemed it immoral.
Pedophilia is different. Any time there is a power dynamic between two people in a relationship, there is the risk (but not guarantee) of abuse. Between a 35 year old and a 6 year old, it's all but guaranteed; between and 35 year old and a 12 year old, it's almost certain; between a 35 year old and a 17 year old, it's less certain. The same problems can occur between a 50 year old boss and a 20 year old intern, or a 20 year old boss and a 50 year old subordinate. The same basic ethics apply to all of these situations and always will.
Gay marriage is not a slippery slope to anarchy, it is a step toward equal rights and peace.
Dan Jensen:
When you say "Homosexual relationships don't harm anyone," I assume you are not talking about the homosexuals themselves?
* 83% gay men have more than 50 partners lifetime.
* Drug use during sex = 50 times hetero.
* 33% loose normal bowel function.
* 1 in 14 die from bacteria and viral disease.
* 70% are STD carriers.
* 30% are HIV pos.
*10% have AIDS.
No big deal because they are consenting adults, right?
Wrong. Actually, 40% of HIV pos. men have had sex in the last two months..."unprotected." I wonder if their partners know?
Safe sex is a cruel joke.
This is an activity that is guaranteed to cause death and disease to those who participate in it.
If we really love these people, we will not accept, facilitate, encourage, enable, or ignore it. We should warn, inform, and encourage acceptance of self-restraint as a lifestyle.
God warns from His nature of Love. But He created us to choose.
Andy Ko:
Ug. Back to correlation and causation. Okay.
Most people in prison are black. Therefore blacks are more violent and immoral. (Wrong. Most people commit crime because they feel they have nothing to lose; most inner-city black kids think they'll be dead by 20, because they're surrounded by death).
Children who go to private schools do better in school and get into better colleges, therefore, private schools are better than public . (Wrong, private schools accept the ones that test well; public schools accept everyone).
Homosexual men have higher rates of unprotected sex and drugs, therefore, homosexuality causes harm. (Wrong. Homosexual men, like black men, engage in riskier behavior because they feel they have nothing to lose after losing everything).
If only the world were so simple. Homosexuality doesn't cause the harm; self-loathing, caused by homophobia, causes the harm. We know this because gay men with loving, accepting parents and friends do not engage in risky behavior.
Dan Jensen:
Homosexual sex requires unnatural use of various body parts for activities for which they were not designed for, therefore, rectums tear, the anal sphincter muscle is gradually destroyed, the absorbing layer of cells in the rectum absorb bacteria rather than repelling it, therefore disease levels in homosexuals are elevated significantly in comparison to exclusive heterosexual participants.
We haven't discussed the pathologies associated with oral sex yet, but the correlation of disease to activity is undeniable.
"Safe Sex" is a nightmare policy that has only emboldened people to discount the warnings being shouted by their consciences, which I think by your definition would be referred to as "self-loathing."
Well-adjusted homosexuals in healthy environments with loving parents are still going to die early from medical complications from their activity. Somebody valuable enough for Jesus Christ to die for, is certainly "being harmed."
Andy Ko:
Wow, you need a sex ed refresher course; or maybe you never had one. Anal and oral sex are in no way riskier or unhealthier than vaginal sex; oral sex is the least risky. Anyone who's told you otherwise is spreading lies. Do your research, even if from a biblical view (www.sexinchrist.com).
Moreover, not all gay men have anal sex, many straight men have anal sex with women, and women of all orientations do it. Maybe you should deny marriage to straight couples who do anal to protect them from themselves.
The worst part about these myths is how many young Christians have unprotected sex because they believe the only ones at risk are gay couples.
To sum up your argument: gay couples shouldn't have equal rights because they harm children (false), they harm themselves (false), it would create an immoral society (false), and god hates gay men (sure, why not?). All you have left is a single line in the bible about murdering men who lie with other men.
You do little to convince.
Dan Jensen:
A plethora of dogmatic assertions does not a defensible argument make.
You have made statements about God with little concern about the reality that He is in fact watching you. It is likely to me that you either do not believe in God or that if you do, you don't believe He is interested in you or what you do.
You have misrepresented and misinterpreted the Holy Scriptures in which God has chosen to reveal Himself to you, suggesting that you believe there are no consequences to ignoring Him.
You have been so immersed in the lies of your social education, you repeat what you have been told by rote as if that will make it true... (i.e. "10% of the population is gay etc,... taken from the embarrassingly discredited Kinsey study of 1948)
If I have not convinced you, I apologize for my inability to do so, because this is about much more than prop 8. It is about the Christian Worldview and the questions it answers for Time and for Eternity. "Seek and you shall find" is referring to Truth.
Andy Ko:
I'll happily cite evidence for every claim I make. I've read the scientific source of every claim I make with a skeptical and objective eye: some were valid, some were not. Many who share my positions *do* accept these things as fact, because few people know how to do or read such research. But I do. I've been doing it for 10 years. I do it now as a professor.
For an even-handed discussion of the Kinsey results, see [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_Reports]. It's missing more recent int'l surveys of homosexuality, which, depending on the sample, lead to statistics between 2 and 15% over respondents' lifetimes.
As for me, I have no need for a god loves some and not all, no need for a god who uses fear, consequence, and retribution to instill good. I have no need for a god that leads people to abandon their reason and individuality for faith and conformance. I can be good consistently and happy persistently by loving myself and those around me. As can billions of others.
Dan Jensen:
Another professor I know considered himself the most reluctant of all Christians. He accepted the authority and Lordship of Jesus as a result of his careful investigation into the claims of Jesus and the claims of the bible. But he had significant misconceptions, irrational fears if you will, about what serving God should be like. But he simply accepted Truth, and through long relationship with God he discovered the forms that love from God would take, and what forms his obedience to the Master would take.
C.S. Lewis would later go on to write about this in The Chronicles of Narnia. In reference to Aslan the lion, a metaphorical substitute for Jesus, when a child asked, "Is he safe?" the reply was a hasty: "Safe? Of course He's not safe! But He is good."
God is not the god you fear he is. But God IS the God that deserves your fear, respect, and obedience. Because of his desire for honest relationship, He lets you be the one to choose.
Andy Ko:
I've read multiple versions of the bible, the Qur'an, the Tanakh, the Tao Te Ching, the Vedas, the Five Classics, the Book of Mormon, Theravada, and several other texts. I've gone regularly to the religious services of several faiths. I've had long and deliberative conversations with people of all kinds of faiths about why I should believe.
Whether God exists or not, whether he is dead or not, does not concern me. What concerns me is how people use and abuse religious beliefs to war and murder. The beliefs about homosexuality and generally any sort of harmless deviance that Christianity and other religions propound leads the less objective of humanity to do horrible things.
Today, for example, is the day we remember people killed in the name of God:
http://www.transgenderdor.org/?page_id=58
I have no problem with religion; I take issue with organized religion's propensity for murder, hate and division. I care far more about suffering here and now than afterlife or judgement day.
Dan Jensen:
"Ug. Back to correlation and causation. Okay."
Christianity teaches that homosexuality is wrong, so when a man tries to bed his new female friend and discovers she lied to him and is actually male and he kills her/him, he is killing in the name of God. Ug.
You simply don't take it far enough. God teaches us what proper behavior is not because he flipped a coin and decided which behaviors are evil and which are good. His character determines what is right and wrong, and the violations which we freely choose create avoidable consequence.
Far more people have suffered and died in the name of atheism than have ever suffered at the hands of those who abuse religious beliefs. Russia, China, Viet Nam, Germany...
Murder is evil regardless of the excuse used to perpetrate it.
Sexual sin is a sin against one's own body. The depression, anxiety, anger, exposure to disease... all personal choice with avoidable consequences. One Man, One Woman, monogamous for life, God's design.
Andy Ko:
*I* know that God doesn't condone murder. It's sheep who read the bible literally who leap from "God hates homosexuality" to "I should spill homosexual blood." As unfortunate as it is, people often interpret religious texts in a way that condones bigoted violence. Most transgender murders are in the name of god; abortion doctor murders are in the name of god; the crusades & inquisitions were in the name of god; 9/11 was in the name of god. People of nearly all religions (or lack thereof) use religion, and in general, believe in absolute truth, as an excuse for violence.
Of course, humanity's gods never meant for this to happen. They just didn't communicate their morality well through writing. This is all the more reason for people to learn ethics explicitly instead of relying on texts that *imply* morals through fables. Say "love your neighbor" and people understand; say "God wants you to love your neighbor or else," and people use God as an excuse for any number of heinous crimes.
Dan Jensen:
People doing what people want to do is called sin. People doing what God wants them to do is called obedience. What you refer to as self-loathing is, I believe, little more than the natural consequence of suppressing conscience.... the act of disobedience to God. That feeling of self-loathing also occurs when Christians hate homosexuals instead of loving them, or when otherwise good dads make dumb decisions with their kids on occasion. The cure for self-loathing is compliance with Truth, or compliance with the design and standards of God. You don't have to be a Christian to experience a measure of success from simply following design, just as the abuse of design in the world of mechanical devices often leads to failure and/or injury.
I respect that you do not yet have the level of confidence in the reliability or divine inspiration of the Bible required to buy in to what I have stated. Part of my confidence comes from study, part from faith, but most comes from my redemption.
Andy Ko:
This is the sad thing about so many religions. People use them as an excuse to judge. You impose your worldview on strangers who do no to harm you, and yet cause real, tangible harm to them, denying them equality, reinforcing stigma and hate--all to preserve a fractured doctrine that you take on faith.
I suppose if I believed that the bible was God's word, I'd sacrifice others' happiness and freedom in his name too. But I don't. It seems silly to place words written and translated by men two millennia ago before the lives of the living.
The irreducible fact here is that I prioritize people and their God-given individuality, while you prioritize their judgement after death. That's too bad; you could bring a of joy to people if you weren't standing in their way calling them sinners. But I suppose God only intended certain kinds of joy, for certain kinds of people, didn't he? How loving of him.
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